The Wolseley Forum

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

3 Pages V   1 2 3 >  
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> The Guzzler's shiny new overdrive gearbox
webmonster
post 23 Oct 2017, 08:35
Post #1


Wolseley Fanatic
Group Icon

Group: Morris Member
Posts: 1,977
Joined: 28-September 10
From: Taranaki
Member No.: 922
Proud citizen of: nz


The Guzzler has an overdrive gearbox!

There was no time for testing or a shakedown before leaving on our trip to Tauranga as the wedding car for a friend's wedding, just two brief trips up and down the road.

The first trip confirmed that the overdrive was engaging, but there was no kickdown action. This turned out to be the pedal missing the switch, so some bending of the pedal and the floor where the switch mounts sorted that out.

The speedo is reading too slow by a long way, but I knew that would happen - speedo heads have different ratios for ordinary cars and OD/Automatic cars.

The overdrive worked a treat going to Tauranga. The extra high ratio of overdrive top gear is fantastic for cruising. I found 3rd and overdrive 3rd very handy for hilly or parts with lots of corners.

Unfortunately the overdrive stopped working while I was in Tauranga, so the trip back was as it used to be with regular top gear. I much prefer having overdrive operational!

I've had no time to look any further in things, but I need to look at these:
1. The freewheel part is working. Pushing in the dashboard lever makes the freewheel available, but even over speeds when the governor would kick in the freewheel remains in operation and the overdrive does not engage. Nor does kickdown do anything. Seems to be electrical.

2. Engaging reverse with the overdrive lever pushed in does not dis-engage the overdrive. The car sits there in reverse with nothing going on. I believe that this should not occur.

3. The overdrive cable is much too stiff, even with lots of good lube. As a temporary fudge Steve and I connected an extra wire to the overdrive lever at the gearbox end of the cable so I could 'pull' from the engine bay while Lisa pulled the dashboard lever. I am not sure about the following:
- that the cable is routed correctly
- that the bracket for the gearbox end is mounted correctly
The way the bracket & cable at the gearbox end is mounted (using top bolt of the solenoid) seems to be too much in a straight line with the OD actuating lever - much too tricky to pull - needs to be more 'downwards' if that makes sense. I'll try and take some photos.

4. The gearbox &/or overdrive is leaking, despite all the nice new seals (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

5. The new clutch has become very fierce, but I can't see any evidence of oil coming out of the split pin at the bottom of the bellhousing.

6. The gearbox cross-member appears to have been bent backwards at some point. This means that the new mounts are being pulled forwards.

Any ideas and discussion and photos would be gratefully received!

Attached File  20171019_214808.jpg ( 693.58K ) Number of downloads: 0

Kick down switch stone & water guard - in the front wheel arch.

Attached File  20171019_214534.jpg ( 692.45K ) Number of downloads: 0

The overdrive cable seems to be too 'in line' with the lever on the overdrive, so it is impossible to pull the dashboard handle to dis-engage the overdrive.
You can see the OD lever to the right of solenoid. When you pull the dashboard lever this lever needs to rotate to the left and swings downwards... this is very difficult!
Is the cable routed incorrectly?
Is the bracket on the top bolt of the solenoid not right?


Attached File  20171019_214539.jpg ( 779K ) Number of downloads: 0

This is looking back from the engine, showing the bracket for the cable.

Ive tried to rotate the photos, but I'm not sure it has worked. They look sideways on my computer! Harumph...


This post has been edited by webmonster: 31 Oct 2017, 07:58
Go to the top of the page
PMEmail Poster  
+Quote Post
Fred Oldham
post 23 Oct 2017, 10:52
Post #2


Wolseley Fanatic
Group Icon

Group: WOC Member
Posts: 1,521
Joined: 16-August 14
From: Sheffield
Member No.: 19,302
Proud citizen of: en


My o/d is not wired up yet, but I did remove and sort the push / pull cable. It was virtually seized and took a good hour or so of oiling, pulling, cleaning, more oiling etc. Eventually, it got easier and easier until it was silky smooth and the rusty coveting inside had all but gone. Because it isn’t wired up and therefore can’t possibly operate, I have never dared to push the cable control in whilst driving, in case I destroy something. What would happen if I did?
Go to the top of the page
PMEmail Poster  
+Quote Post
webmonster
post 24 Oct 2017, 03:49
Post #3


Wolseley Fanatic
Group Icon

Group: Morris Member
Posts: 1,977
Joined: 28-September 10
From: Taranaki
Member No.: 922
Proud citizen of: nz


QUOTE (Fred Oldham @ 23 Oct 2017, 23:52 ) *
My o/d is not wired up yet, but I did remove and sort the push / pull cable. It was virtually seized and took a good hour or so of oiling, pulling, cleaning, more oiling etc. Eventually, it got easier and easier until it was silky smooth and the rusty coveting inside had all but gone.

If you are willing/able, would you mind trying to take some photos of the rear (gearbox) mounting for the cable? Even better if you can take pics in both 'on' and 'off' positions (at the gearbox end).
QUOTE
Because it isn’t wired up and therefore can’t possibly operate, I have never dared to push the cable control in whilst driving, in case I destroy something. What would happen if I did?

The same as me - the freewheel would operate at all speeds. Not all that useful!
The electrical circuits operate the fun bits!
Go to the top of the page
PMEmail Poster  
+Quote Post
Fred Oldham
post 24 Oct 2017, 14:11
Post #4


Wolseley Fanatic
Group Icon

Group: WOC Member
Posts: 1,521
Joined: 16-August 14
From: Sheffield
Member No.: 19,302
Proud citizen of: en


Oh, right. Not a big risk then. I’ll take some pictures in the next few days.
Go to the top of the page
PMEmail Poster  
+Quote Post
Danny
post 24 Oct 2017, 14:41
Post #5


Wolseley Fanatic
*******

Group: Forum Member
Posts: 1,913
Joined: 4-February 11
From: Sydney
Member No.: 1,742
Proud citizen of: au


QUOTE
Seems to be electrical.


If you are using that 2RA relay regard it with grave suspicion. Substitute it with a cube relay as Herb showed HERE...if only for testing purposes.

The first test for "overdrive does not engage" involves testing the relay. Shorting out the throttle switch terminal on the relay to earth should make the relay click. If not check the fuse and clips (If 2RA) and power to the relay. If fuse & power lead is good and relay still won't click (when shorting out the throttle switch terminal on the relay) then the relay is bung!



Edit: Should you have been trying this and scratching the head it may be because I was writing Solenoid when I meant relay (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blush.gif) . I have changed and highlighted the offending bits.The electrical tests are in any manual with a BW overdrive section, although I find them a bit convoluted!

I have another testing sheet hidden somewhere which I think was posted on this forum, possibly by Stewart,...am looking for it. Found it.
Attached File  od5.jpeg ( 647.65K ) Number of downloads: 0
Attached File  od6.jpeg ( 747.48K ) Number of downloads: 0


Danny

This post has been edited by Danny: 25 Oct 2017, 07:00
Go to the top of the page
PMEmail Poster  
+Quote Post
webmonster
post 31 Oct 2017, 08:04
Post #6


Wolseley Fanatic
Group Icon

Group: Morris Member
Posts: 1,977
Joined: 28-September 10
From: Taranaki
Member No.: 922
Proud citizen of: nz


Thanks for the info and article, Danny.
I'm going to have a look as soon as I can... won't be before the weekend, probably (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

The relay is a genuine 2RA from a 6/110.

A quick look at the lucar connector to the coil and the metal tab inside the insulator seems to have snapped off, so I'll crimp a new one on when I get some.

I've tried to rotate the images and re-upload them in my first post (seems unsuccessful! help!) and I've explained a bit better what I think is incorrect about the cable.
Go to the top of the page
PMEmail Poster  
+Quote Post
webmonster
post 31 Oct 2017, 08:13
Post #7


Wolseley Fanatic
Group Icon

Group: Morris Member
Posts: 1,977
Joined: 28-September 10
From: Taranaki
Member No.: 922
Proud citizen of: nz


This website in the USA:
http://www.vintageautogarage.com/Borg-Warn...-p/05415kds.htm

They are re-manufacturing new spares for Borg-Warner overdrives - even the relay looks like an early 2RA.
Are they the correct bits?
Go to the top of the page
PMEmail Poster  
+Quote Post
matthew.h
post 9 Nov 2017, 08:59
Post #8


Wolseley Fanatic
*******

Group: Forum Member
Posts: 466
Joined: 24-June 12
From: Chch, New Zealand
Member No.: 9,890
Proud citizen of: nz


Never put it reverse with overdrive cable in as this smashes the gearbox to bits. Even if not engage but cable still in it will still do it
Go to the top of the page
PMEmail Poster  
+Quote Post
Fred Oldham
post 9 Nov 2017, 12:06
Post #9


Wolseley Fanatic
Group Icon

Group: WOC Member
Posts: 1,521
Joined: 16-August 14
From: Sheffield
Member No.: 19,302
Proud citizen of: en


I promised to post some pictures of the cable connection/position, but I’ve got the garage clogged up with my rusty Beemer at the moment, so I’m afraid I can’t do it. sorry Webmonster. This rotathon could take several weeks.
Interesting note about don’t put it in reverse with o/d engaged. I’ll try very hard not to.

This post has been edited by Fred Oldham: 9 Nov 2017, 12:07
Go to the top of the page
PMEmail Poster  
+Quote Post
Danny
post 9 Nov 2017, 13:49
Post #10


Wolseley Fanatic
*******

Group: Forum Member
Posts: 1,913
Joined: 4-February 11
From: Sydney
Member No.: 1,742
Proud citizen of: au


QUOTE
Never put it reverse with overdrive cable in as this smashes the gearbox to bits. Even if not engage but cable still in it will still do it



From the workshop manual;

QUOTE
Since the roller clutch cannot transmit reverse drive, it is necessary to lock up whenever it is desired to reverse the car. This is done automatically whenever reverse gear is selected by the gearbox reverse shift mechanism, which pushes the lock-up shift rail to the rear independently of the overdrive dash control.


We've had this before HERE and I agree that while it is good practice to lock up manually, it shouldn't be necessary if your overdrive is functionally correct.

Danny
Go to the top of the page
PMEmail Poster  
+Quote Post
webmonster
post 14 Nov 2017, 09:55
Post #11


Wolseley Fanatic
Group Icon

Group: Morris Member
Posts: 1,977
Joined: 28-September 10
From: Taranaki
Member No.: 922
Proud citizen of: nz


QUOTE (matthew.h @ 9 Nov 2017, 21:59 ) *
Never put it reverse with overdrive cable in as this smashes the gearbox to bits. Even if not engage but cable still in it will still do it

My mechanic and I have done this on my car and it the car just sits there in reverse making a slight whirring sound and going nowhere!

If I recall correctlyl the workshop manual saying don't attempt to make the car go backwards if overdrive refuses to disengage.
Go to the top of the page
PMEmail Poster  
+Quote Post
webmonster
post 14 Nov 2017, 10:02
Post #12


Wolseley Fanatic
Group Icon

Group: Morris Member
Posts: 1,977
Joined: 28-September 10
From: Taranaki
Member No.: 922
Proud citizen of: nz


QUOTE (Fred Oldham @ 10 Nov 2017, 01:06 ) *
I promised to post some pictures of the cable connection/position, but I’ve got the garage clogged up with my rusty Beemer at the moment, so I’m afraid I can’t do it. sorry Webmonster. This rotathon could take several weeks.

No hurry - I haven't had a chance to look at my old cars for ages, and there is no window coming up any time soon. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)
Go to the top of the page
PMEmail Poster  
+Quote Post
Danny
post 15 Nov 2017, 01:02
Post #13


Wolseley Fanatic
*******

Group: Forum Member
Posts: 1,913
Joined: 4-February 11
From: Sydney
Member No.: 1,742
Proud citizen of: au


My lock-up cable broke yesterday on a trip to the NSW Central Coast (don't know why yet) leaving me unable to lock-up the freewheel and I used reverse several times without problem.

Overdrive not disengaging is not the same thing as not being able to lock-up the freewheel. Even if the lock-up shift rail failed to be activated by the reverse gear selector mechanism for some reason I'd think the noises of complaint from the gearbox would alert you to a problem before you destroyed the box.

Danny

This post has been edited by Danny: 15 Nov 2017, 01:03
Go to the top of the page
PMEmail Poster  
+Quote Post
webmonster
post 22 Nov 2017, 09:38
Post #14


Wolseley Fanatic
Group Icon

Group: Morris Member
Posts: 1,977
Joined: 28-September 10
From: Taranaki
Member No.: 922
Proud citizen of: nz


Slow progress - I've had very little time to do anything since returning from Tauranga.
Today I replaced the spade (Lucar) connector for the coil. Hopefully that will be the kickdown operational again.

Still need to test the governor.
Still need to work out how to route the OD lock-out cable and bracket(s).

Interesting thought of the day:
On the non-OD gearbox there is a breather/vent on the rear extension of the gearbox... but this bit of casing is replaced by the overdrive unit!
So... for 4 speed OD gearboxes is the breather/vent the gearbox dipstick?
Go to the top of the page
PMEmail Poster  
+Quote Post
Fred Oldham
post 22 Nov 2017, 14:10
Post #15


Wolseley Fanatic
Group Icon

Group: WOC Member
Posts: 1,521
Joined: 16-August 14
From: Sheffield
Member No.: 19,302
Proud citizen of: en


Re: the vent. If that’s the only hole available, I suppose it must be. If the dip-stick is a tight fit, then no vent? Oil forced past the seals?

Considering the cost and complexity of o/d units, why did it take fifty years to develop the five speed box? It’s very sledgehammer to crack a nut, don’t you think?
Go to the top of the page
PMEmail Poster  
+Quote Post
webmonster
post 24 Nov 2017, 01:29
Post #16


Wolseley Fanatic
Group Icon

Group: Morris Member
Posts: 1,977
Joined: 28-September 10
From: Taranaki
Member No.: 922
Proud citizen of: nz


Aha! I've found a scan of the 6/90 gearbox - both OD and non-OD.

On the non-OD gearbox you can see the breather - #42
Attached File  690_gbox_no_OD.jpg ( 229.87K ) Number of downloads: 0


...and on the OD gearbox there appears to be no breather at all!
Attached File  690_gbox_OD.jpg ( 261.23K ) Number of downloads: 0


Edit: photo of original non-OD mainshaft extension with breather:
Attached File  20171122_131805.jpg ( 117.47K ) Number of downloads: 0


That's a bit curious. What have I missed?

This post has been edited by webmonster: 10 Dec 2017, 22:35
Go to the top of the page
PMEmail Poster  
+Quote Post
webmonster
post 24 Nov 2017, 01:40
Post #17


Wolseley Fanatic
Group Icon

Group: Morris Member
Posts: 1,977
Joined: 28-September 10
From: Taranaki
Member No.: 922
Proud citizen of: nz


QUOTE (Fred Oldham @ 23 Nov 2017, 03:10 ) *
Re: the vent. If that’s the only hole available, I suppose it must be. If the dip-stick is a tight fit, then no vent? Oil forced past the seals?

The clutch now has a judder and it was beautifully smooth when I left for Tauranga. I wonder if some oil has come out past the 1st motion shaft seal.
And there are oil leaks in other places of the gearbox too.
QUOTE
Considering the cost and complexity of o/d units, why did it take fifty years to develop the five speed box? It’s very sledgehammer to crack a nut, don’t you think?

I dunno. I think the concept of the overdrive is pretty cool - more interesting than a 5-speed gearbox, I think (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Perhaps it was current thinking amongst that era of engineers?
Sturmey Archer 3-speed hubs for bicycles had epicyclic gears, if I recall correctly.
The Overdrive itself seems very robustly built. I imagine that very little actually goes wrong with the overdrive - it's the electrical circuits!

Other thoughts:
Overdrive was an optional extra, produced by an external supplier. BMC could keep everything else the same in their 4-speed gearbox (except the mainshaft).
Overdrive gives semi-automatic driving experience. Put your foot down and the gear changes instantaneously - much quicker than changing gear.

I'd almost be certain that BMC engineers (and other UK manufacturers) would imagine that Joe Bloggs wouldn't be interested in having another - 3 and 4 speeds are quite enough. Even heaters were optional extras!
5 speed ZF boxes were available for those fancy foreign racecars.

Go to the top of the page
PMEmail Poster  
+Quote Post
Danny
post 24 Nov 2017, 02:24
Post #18


Wolseley Fanatic
*******

Group: Forum Member
Posts: 1,913
Joined: 4-February 11
From: Sydney
Member No.: 1,742
Proud citizen of: au


Number 138 in the second scan is the breather for the overdrive set up.

Re your overdrive cable, I would be inclined to disconnect it from the lever and try moving the lever by hand before blaming the cable. It should be easy (well mine is) to move toward the front of the box (lock-up). When you move toward the rear (as in when pushing dash control in) there seems to be a slight resistance and then it snaps out on its own.

Whilst the cable is disconnected from the lever is the cable nice and free? It should be dead easy to move in & out.

I haven't thought this through yet but I'm thinking this has something to do with your solenoid activated pawl still being engaged due to, hopefully only, your electrical problems not allowing it to release. This seems to correlate with your problem in reverse ATM. If you can't move that lever by hand as above (cable diconnected) I suspect this could be the case.

Which vehicle did your set up emanate from? Out of interest.

Danny

This post has been edited by Danny: 24 Nov 2017, 03:26
Go to the top of the page
PMEmail Poster  
+Quote Post
webmonster
post 28 Nov 2017, 08:54
Post #19


Wolseley Fanatic
Group Icon

Group: Morris Member
Posts: 1,977
Joined: 28-September 10
From: Taranaki
Member No.: 922
Proud citizen of: nz


QUOTE (Danny @ 24 Nov 2017, 15:24 ) *
Number 138 in the second scan is the breather for the overdrive set up.

Aha! I'll have a closer look at my gearbox...
QUOTE
Re your overdrive cable, I would be inclined to disconnect it from the lever and try moving the lever by hand before blaming the cable. It should be easy (well mine is) to move toward the front of the box (lock-up). When you move toward the rear (as in when pushing dash control in) there seems to be a slight resistance and then it snaps out on its own.

OK, I'll check that out.
QUOTE
Whilst the cable is disconnected from the lever is the cable nice and free? It should be dead easy to move in & out.

I'll check that too. Steve told me that he pushed some quality lube through the cable, but I haven't tried it personally. I also have no idea if it is routed the best way - there is no info or photos anywhere that I can find.
QUOTE
I haven't thought this through yet but I'm thinking this has something to do with your solenoid activated pawl still being engaged due to, hopefully only, your electrical problems not allowing it to release. This seems to correlate with your problem in reverse ATM. If you can't move that lever by hand as above (cable diconnected) I suspect this could be the case.

I can't hear any clicks coming from the relay, so perhaps it has given up the ghost? How can I check it?
I can move the cable (& the lever). When I 'push for overdrive' the car freewheels at any road speed.

When the overdrive was operating OK I could still select reverse but the car stayed stationary. I have to pull the cable to engage reverse.
I suspect that the internal linkage between the reverse lever and OD is not set up correctly (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif)

It is possible that the solenoid has given up! I have another one on another gearbox.

I'm not feeling terribly confident about checking the electrical bits. I'll confess that I have a bit of a fear about making sparks or letting out the Lucas smoke...
However I am keen to learn, if you lot are able to put up with me asking some potentially stupid questions (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

QUOTE
Which vehicle did your set up emanate from? Out of interest.

No one vehicle...
The 4-speed OD box came from the Manawatu Wolseley CC parts shed. It appears to be an A90 gearbox - there is an 'A' in the circle with the 26.
However, this unit was not complete. The solenoid was missing. The internals of the gearbox were pretty sad - many bits of my Isis gearbox went in there along with a better Laygear cluster.
The overdrive itself was in pretty good condition.
A replacement solenoid came from one of the spare 3-speed OD boxes I've got.
The OD cable came from a 6/90 years ago - along with a seized 3-speed OD gearbox, although I had bought it as a 4-speed box...
No gearbox or cable came with either a dashboard bracket nor a bracket for the gearbox end of the cable.
The dashboard one is something from a Mini (for now).
The gearbox end of the cable has a bracket from a 6/110.

...so... any photos that anyone can take of their A90 or 6/90 OD gearbox cables might help me a lot (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


Go to the top of the page
PMEmail Poster  
+Quote Post
webmonster
post 5 Dec 2017, 05:03
Post #20


Wolseley Fanatic
Group Icon

Group: Morris Member
Posts: 1,977
Joined: 28-September 10
From: Taranaki
Member No.: 922
Proud citizen of: nz


Huzzah! I've had 2 minutes to rub together and start to do some fault finding.

The 2RA relay lives!
Earthing the Th. Sw. terminal makes a click.
Go to the top of the page
PMEmail Poster  
+Quote Post

3 Pages V   1 2 3 >
Reply to this topicStart new topic
1 User(s) are reading this topic (1 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 21st January 2018 - 14:40