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> Oxford Ser IV Brake Lights
Martin Hamilton
post 4 Oct 2017, 14:16
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G'Day everyone, Today's entertainment is Brake / stop lights

Cut to the chase:


  • Does anyone have a circuit diagram for a series III or IV that shows separate stop and tail lights, with a key and colours?

  • Can anyone tell me where the actuator switch for the brake lights is to be found - I expected it to be near the brake master cylinder and triggered only by the brake pedal given the same master cylinder serves both brake and clutch.

  • Does anyone have an extract from a manual that details the actuator switch?
  • What is the correct bulb for the brake lights
Pictures will show in correct orientation if you click enlarge at the top of each (I expect you knew that!)

The detail


I have two original BMC manuals:

  • BMC workshop manual for Oxford Series II, III & Cowley
  • AND the "other" BMC workshop manual for Oxford Cowley Traveller & Half-ton van

The manuals are extremely average on the topic of the separate brake light and sidelight as fitted to my traveller (please see pictures) and prefer to talk about the later module that incorporates flashing indicators (I have trafficators) as fitted to Rover P4 and mini vans.

The wiring diagrams show only a single combined stop/tail bulb, whereas my traveller has separate bulbs for stop and for tail. The parts manual is more useful in showing the components but obviously doesn't provide any explanations.

At present the sidelights work and the brake lights do not.

In ALL 8 wiring diagrams, both lamps share a common earth through the mounting to the bodywork as shown in the attached extract. The colours of the braiding sheath have faded and while there is a red-ish wire (I suspect this is for the number-plate lamp) it doesn't run to the sidelamp bulb. There is a green-ish wire running to the stop lamp. The remining wire to the sidelamp has faded beyond recognition

The parts manual only shows one wire each for the separate stop and tail lamps - (but gives no indication of colour).

So, as the side lights work and the stop/brake lamp bulbs are OK (tested) then I conclude it's not the local earth (Correct? do tell me if I'm wrong!)... it must therefore be the actuator switch. AS the actuator switch shares a feed from fuse F4 whilch also drives the fuel guage (working!) its not a fuse or the fust box inless the actuator switch connection to the fuse box has come adrift (I now realise).

Having poured over both original workshop manuals and the parts manual (second issue) I cannot anywhere find a reference to the location of the actuator switch for the brake lights.

So here are some questions:

Does anyone have a circuit diagram for a series III or IV that shows separate stop and tail lights, with a key and colours?

Can anyone tell me where the actuator switch for the brake lights is to be found (I expected it to be near the brake master cylinder and triggered only by the brake pedal given the same master cylinder serves both brake and clutch).

Does anyone have an extract from a manual that details the actuator switch?

What is the correct bulb for the brake lights

Cheers!
Martin

This post has been edited by Martin Hamilton: 4 Oct 2017, 15:14
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Penguin45
post 4 Oct 2017, 15:42
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Looks like the switch is part of a 4 way union.

(IMG:https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4501/36826219583_b5ed66880b_b.jpg) Oxford brake unions by Penguin 45, on Flickr

Should be quite easy to find?

P45.
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Martin Hamilton
post 4 Oct 2017, 16:43
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QUOTE (Penguin45 @ 4 Oct 2017, 16:42 ) *
Looks like the switch is part of a 4 way union.

Oxford brake unions by Penguin 45, on Flickr

Should be quite easy to find?

P45.


Well, all I can say is
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MYKE
post 4 Oct 2017, 16:51
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Under the bonnet on the right hand side is the usual place to find the brake switch. Maybe close to the radiator or even under it.

As Mr. P. says, it is screwed into a four way connector and you will find three brake pipes screwed into the rest of it.

There should be two wires connected to the switch. One live and the other goes direct to your stop light bulbs. They may be secured by little grub screws or the later ones have Lucar connectors and just push on. It's common for a wire to get pulled off.

Connect the two wires together and your brake lights should come on. If they do, the switch is faulty. If not trace the wire back and make sure it is getting power through from F4.
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Martin Hamilton
post 4 Oct 2017, 18:57
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QUOTE (MYKE @ 4 Oct 2017, 17:51 ) *
Under the bonnet on the right hand side is the usual place to find the brake switch. Maybe close to the radiator or even under it.

As Mr. P. says, it is screwed into a four way connector and you will find three brake pipes screwed into the rest of it.

There should be two wires connected to the switch. One live and the other goes direct to your stop light bulbs. They may be secured by little grub screws or the later ones have Lucar connectors and just push on. It's common for a wire to get pulled off.

Connect the two wires together and your brake lights should come on. If they do, the switch is faulty. If not trace the wire back and make sure it is getting power through from F4.


Ta for that Myke.

What I'm left with is wondering if anyone hasa circuit diagram for a series III or IV that shows separate stop and tail lights, with a key and colours?
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ozieagle
post 4 Oct 2017, 19:59
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Hi,

I'm not an Isis owner, but I would imagine that the circuit for the two bulbs is the same as for one bulb with two filaments, except that there are two bulbs.

Herb

edited to add

Perusing the wiring diagram, posted above, the red wire is the stop light and the green purple wire is the tail light, from the letters next to the wires, R =red, GP = green / purple

edited to further add

Looking at the wiring diagram, here

http://www.wolseleyforum.com/index.php?showtopic=12736

for a Wolseley 1500, it seems that the green purple is actually the brake light wire and the red the tail light. The colours were to a standard for all LBCs.

This post has been edited by ozieagle: 4 Oct 2017, 20:15
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Martin Hamilton
post 5 Oct 2017, 06:21
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QUOTE (ozieagle @ 4 Oct 2017, 20:59 ) *
Hi,

Looking at the wiring diagram, here

http://www.wolseleyforum.com/index.php?showtopic=12736

for a Wolseley 1500, it seems that the green purple is actually the brake light wire and the red the tail light. The colours were to a standard for all LBCs.


Thanks Herb, now I need a magic ray gun or some such to restore the colours of my wires so I can see what they are (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

I never knew there were standard colours, I thought each manufacturer just made them up!

It's going to be quite interesting for the next owner - for my add-ons (indicators, 12v socket, foglight, reversing light, etc.) I just chose wiring colours that aren't in use on my Oxford. (But I will be drawing a diagram in living colours)

The reason for asking if anyone has a wiring diagram showing separate stop/tail lights is because of the absence of them in my 8 different diagrams - which concerns me that there may be other omissions. Still I know where to come with any further queries.

Cheers!
Martin
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webmonster
post 6 Oct 2017, 09:15
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4-way brake union (with brake light switch on its top) is in the engine bay mounted on the chassis rail next to the inner guard and the oil filter is on its other side. I'll see if I can find a piccy.

The brake light switch can get crusty and jam internally.
I think someone else on this forum said that the new replacement switches get burned out easily - fitting a relay or LED bulbs fixes this.

I'll have a look for any wiring diagrams. Failing that I'll have a squizz at my Isis.

My thoughts re: rear lighting cluster -
Change larger (bottom) lens to have dual stop/tail fitting. Fit brightest LED bulbs you can find.
Change top (smaller) lens to have bulb holder to fit an indicator bulb (21w or LED equivalent).
This is how cars originally fitted with flashing indicators left the Morris factory. You can even have amber lenses for the flasher - personally I prefer red lenses.
At the front park lamps can be fitted with dual filament bulbs - there is a nice LED from the USA - parklamp is white LED, flasher is orange LED.

Get rid of the yucky after market amber lens (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

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Martin Hamilton
post 6 Oct 2017, 11:41
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QUOTE (webmonster @ 6 Oct 2017, 10:15 ) *
4-way brake union (with brake light switch on its top) is in the engine bay mounted on the chassis rail next to the inner guard and the oil filter is on its other side. I'll see if I can find a piccy.

The brake light switch can get crusty and jam internally.
I think someone else on this forum said that the new replacement switches get burned out easily - fitting a relay or LED bulbs fixes this.

I'll have a look for any wiring diagrams. Failing that I'll have a squizz at my Isis.

My thoughts re: rear lighting cluster -
Change larger (bottom) lens to have dual stop/tail fitting. Fit brightest LED bulbs you can find.
Change top (smaller) lens to have bulb holder to fit an indicator bulb (21w or LED equivalent).
This is how cars originally fitted with flashing indicators left the Morris factory. You can even have amber lenses for the flasher - personally I prefer red lenses.
At the front park lamps can be fitted with dual filament bulbs - there is a nice LED from the USA - parklamp is white LED, flasher is orange LED.

Get rid of the yucky after market amber lens (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

At the mo, its not the brake light actuator switch as I've tracked it down thanks to advice from P45 and Richard Monk, connected the two wires and still no lights so I'm working backwards from the aforementioned switch. I will fit a second set of bulbs just to be sure before I get too deeply into the guts of the wiring!

I have a list of LEDs ready to order which include some pretty powerful high intensity sidelamp LEDs that are as bright as most day running lights.

Regards the tail light cluster, I would prefer to do as you say and I also prefer red for the indicators, but that's definitely not legal in the UK. The issues with converting to amber are two-fold.
  1. I'm fairly sure amber lenses that will fit correctly are not available.
  2. The stop/tail requires a bayonet fitting with offset pegs. The existing stop-only bulb has parallel pegs. Conversion would require the fitting of the correct, exactly matching, bulb-holder and I have no idea if this is available at all, anywhere - PLUS all of the wiring in the Traveller is inside a bulkhead with quite small access holes - If I were to remove both the bulb holders it wouldn't be an impossible job, but I'm finding that the development of the arthritis in my hands makes holding and operating small tools in confined spaces is challenging to say the least.
So whilst I agree the aftermarket lenses are quite ugly, they ARE an easy fit and they are also a fairly contemporary aftermarket fitting. If you recall (see pic) there are a pair of indicator lenses and a pair of reverse lenses on the back of mine. I'm replacing these with the standard Landrover units (slightly smaller): 2 indicators, one reverse light, one fog light - and all with appropriate LEDs

Cheers!
Martin
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geeksteve
post 6 Oct 2017, 14:02
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QUOTE (Martin Hamilton @ 6 Oct 2017, 12:41 ) *
  1. I'm fairly sure amber lenses that will fit correctly are not available.
  2. The stop/tail requires a bayonet fitting with offset pegs. The existing stop-only bulb has parallel pegs. Conversion would require the fitting of the correct, exactly matching, bulb-holder and I have no idea if this is available at all, anywhere - PLUS all of the wiring in the Traveller is inside a bulkhead with quite small access holes - If I were to remove both the bulb holders it wouldn't be an impossible job, but I'm finding that the development of the arthritis in my hands makes holding and operating small tools in confined spaces is challenging to say the least.


I have amber indicator lenses on the back, and dual fillament bulbs. No idea where the previous owner got the parts from - they look factory though. Maybe an international model or something. I'm not sure I'd know where to get the bits to do it myself..

Steve
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Martin Hamilton
post 6 Oct 2017, 14:23
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QUOTE (geeksteve @ 6 Oct 2017, 15:02 ) *
I have amber indicator lenses on the back, and dual fillament bulbs. No idea where the previous owner got the parts from - they look factory though. Maybe an international model or something. I'm not sure I'd know where to get the bits to do it myself..

Steve


You're right, Steve. Having been reading up on this and perusing the parts manual in some detail, the latter quotes separately for LHD indicator parts (lenses, bulb holders, etc.) and I've read somewhere that international models were all fitted with flashing indicators.

Hey ho!

Cheers
Martin
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Danny
post 6 Oct 2017, 16:33
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Attached File  IMG_20170418_141132_1_.jpg ( 370.59K ) Number of downloads: 0


This is what I have on my SIII 6/90 which I think is the same tail light unit. (although in a couple of those photos the lenses appear to be the same size on the Morris).

I think one of the Z Magnettes may have had these lenses.

Danny

EDIT: They're not the same unit at all are they? Are they the same as the Isis?

This post has been edited by Danny: 6 Oct 2017, 16:41
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Martin Hamilton
post 6 Oct 2017, 17:33
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QUOTE (Danny @ 6 Oct 2017, 17:33 ) *
Attached File  IMG_20170418_141132_1_.jpg ( 370.59K ) Number of downloads: 0


This is what I have on my SIII 6/90 which I think is the same tail light unit. (although in a couple of those photos the lenses appear to be the same size on the Morris).

I think one of the Z Magnettes may have had these lenses.

Danny

EDIT: They're not the same unit at all are they? Are they the same as the Isis?



They look exactly the same as those on my Series IV Danny, but both my lenses are red.

As I said, I have no idea if the amber lenses are available, but I'd also need the stop/tail version of the bulb holder to convert mine and, well, powdered unicorn horn comes to mind. Of course if anyone knows better then please do let me bite your hand off for 2 x amber lens and 2 x stop/tail bulb holder (and for a decent condition chrome cluster assembly x2 I'll take your arm as well)..... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/tongue.gif)

The reason for your amber lenses is that export models were shipped with flashing indicators, whereas in the UK the driving standards and ESP were so high we only needed trafficators to ensure other drivers knew where we were going (NOT!).... although actually its a marque thing. Wolsely 6/90 being upmarket got the amber indicators, Morris Oxford (& Cowley?) being mass-market got trafficators

Cheers!
Martin

This post has been edited by Martin Hamilton: 6 Oct 2017, 17:41
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Danny
post 7 Oct 2017, 01:17
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Martin, the Aussie 6/90s weren't blessed with the flashers which was most probably a North American thing only. I have fitted these up myself. The amber lens was a fairly common find at swap meets/autojumbles once upon a time.

I reckon the double pole holders should be available new somewhere like Holdens.

HERE are some bulb holders.

Attached File  Lucas_L551.jpg ( 4.98K ) Number of downloads: 0


This is the lens (Lucas L551) 15 squids+ VAT new from Holdens. (Big one for low position)

Attached File  L539.jpg ( 5.4K ) Number of downloads: 0


Small one for top position (L539) 19 quid+VAT (you don't need the chrome rim maybe need to search for one without..I've run out of time.)

Danny

This post has been edited by Danny: 7 Oct 2017, 06:24
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webmonster
post 7 Oct 2017, 07:21
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From what I can gather ALL LHD Cowley/Oxford/Isis had flashing indicators.
Most RHD cars had trafficators.

Amber lenses are available - I'm getting some as a whole sample set for the rear cluster from India, so hold yer horses. ukp15 each sounds expensive.

re: red lenses for flashers - I think legality is based on the age of the car. MG ZA and ZB Magnettes, MGAs, Morris Minors, AH Sprites - they all have red lenses only at the back and have that interesting Lucas control box for brake/indicator stuff.

Bulb holders - almost any auto sparky will have an offset bayonet holder that can be retrofitted.

Martin - do check the bulbs asap. I saw that both brake lights on my new-fangled Suzuki Aerio had stopped working and imagining the worst I checked the fuses and other things...
...it turned out that both bulbs had blown!
I replaced them with the incandescent bulbs from the Oxford that I had replaced with LEDs (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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MYKE
post 7 Oct 2017, 08:52
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I had a Minor with the sensible relay.. In fact I think I still have a relay somewhere in the hoard. They are solid, with no plastic parts and will last forever.

The idea was to take the feed from the brake light switch, and use it to make the stop light flash as an indicator. Red flashers are legal in UK. if they were fitted by the manufacturer, or if there were no flashers fitted originally. (The early Wolseley 1500 has amber flashers on the back, but clear lenses at the front).

I wanted to keep Minor as original as possible, but after two near misses and a rear shunt, I realised that other drivers don't recognise red flashers as a turning signal, but think you have something wrong with your stop lights.

I kept the red flashers, but coupled them up to a pair of amber repeater lights at each end inside of the rear screen where the were not noticeable until switched on, but were at eye level, and very noticeable when in use.
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rustyroger
post 7 Oct 2017, 09:43
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Amber indicators are not required on vehicles first used before September 1st 1965. No need to spoil your cars originality if you don't want to.

On the other hand most drivers today will be expecting to see amber lights.
I remember cussing out a Morris Minor turning in front of me without signalling, only when it was part way through its turn did I see the semaphore arm sticking out. I simply wasn't looking for it.
When I took my driving test I had to use hand signals for part of the test, I saw why when the above mentioned happened. Nowadays making a hand gesture will most likely provoke "road rage". (IMG:style_emoticons/default/mad.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/mad.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/mad.gif)

Roger.

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Martin Hamilton
post 7 Oct 2017, 13:21
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QUOTE (Danny @ 7 Oct 2017, 02:17 ) *
Martin, the Aussie 6/90s weren't blessed with the flashers which was most probably a North American thing only. I have fitted these up myself. The amber lens was a fairly common find at swap meets/autojumbles once upon a time.

I reckon the double pole holders should be available new somewhere like Holdens.


Danny

Always happy to admit my ignorance. Danny, you're a genius, many thanks - your post gave me the confidence to look a bit more and I've tracked down a couple of new-old-stock L551 stop/tail assemblies, complete, so no need for separate bulb-holders that require an extra hole in the backplate to acommodate a separate tail light bulb - That prompted me to start unscrewing things to find that pretty much everything takes apart and I won't have to manipulate small tools in confined spaces - so all I need to do is use my lekky screwdriver and connect the wires!

Plenty of sources for the Amber L539 lens, all about £20 incl tax.

Cheers!
Martin

This post has been edited by Martin Hamilton: 7 Oct 2017, 13:22
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Martin Hamilton
post 7 Oct 2017, 13:48
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QUOTE (webmonster @ 7 Oct 2017, 08:21 ) *
From what I can gather ALL LHD Cowley/Oxford/Isis had flashing indicators.
Most RHD cars had trafficators.

Amber lenses are available - I'm getting some as a whole sample set for the rear cluster from India, so hold yer horses. ukp15 each sounds expensive.

re: red lenses for flashers - I think legality is based on the age of the car. MG ZA and ZB Magnettes, MGAs, Morris Minors, AH Sprites - they all have red lenses only at the back and have that interesting Lucas control box for brake/indicator stuff.

Bulb holders - almost any auto sparky will have an offset bayonet holder that can be retrofitted.

Martin - do check the bulbs asap. I saw that both brake lights on my new-fangled Suzuki Aerio had stopped working and imagining the worst I checked the fuses and other things...
...it turned out that both bulbs had blown!
I replaced them with the incandescent bulbs from the Oxford that I had replaced with LEDs (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


My view on red flashers is that no-one will realise they are indicators as someone else has mentioned. (see my post above in reply to Danny for the latest on the physical lenses & bulb-holders). I'm just going to post a final comment on the fault, below.

Cheers!
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Martin Hamilton
post 7 Oct 2017, 13:50
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As far as the fault is concerned,

I had replaced the fuse and both bulbs already, but to be sure I replaced both bulbs again and still no joy;

then the fuse (35A, really?!) still no joy.

Finally, in a fit of desperation I loosened and tightened the 4 screws holding the wires into the fuse unit. The first three were tight, the fourth required three complete revolutons, so (ta Dar!) I have brake lights and I can't tell you how relieved I am.....Huzzah !!!!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

This post has been edited by Martin Hamilton: 7 Oct 2017, 13:51
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